Doug and I are co-teaching an American Culture Class here in Hue. We are getting along very well and having lots of fun. I am a regular reader of his blog and sometimes write comments and put my ideas on it too. (Thank you Doug for letting me voice my ideas on your wonderful blog.) Once I happened to read an old post of his entitled Whazzit Like to Teach English in Vietnam? I was fascinated by his observations and bounced ideas off him and the debate began, which amazingly soon got some other folks involved too. Now that I have just started a blog of my own, I have an idea of gathering all the opinions and putting them into this post for you to read. (Excuse me for quoting your ideas here, folks.) This may be too long and confusing but it is stimulating and worthwhile, I guess. The message to my students who might read this blog is we get along very well, but we debated and we learned…
Doug:
First of all – teaching English is fun!
Language is expressed in different ways. As native speakers, we write English, we speak English, we listen to English, and we read English. Teaching a class can involve any one (or more) of those skills. I’ve been very lucky in that I have been assigned to teach speaking, writing, and even an American Culture class. (Yes – it is a requirement for English majors, as is British Culture.)
Most English majors are girls. (Before I get nasty comments from feminists, please be aware that one’s marital status determines whether you are a girl or woman in Việt Nam, not one’s age.) All students have taken English in high school, and have passed very competitive university entrance exams before being admitted to the English department. But – that does not necessarily mean they can speak or write English. It means they have studied the grammar and syntax of English, but have not always learned how to speak the language. That’s where native speaking English teachers come in. We can help the students pronounce English correctly and teach the many idioms and nuances used in everyday English. In other words, we teach them how to communicate in English, building on the skills they have already learned in high school.
I meet with my first year speaking class twice each week – 2 hours each time. There are 60 students in the class. That is not a typo – I have 60 students. They are chatty and noisy and fun loving. When I first started with this group in the early fall, they were disconcerted by the fact that I often arrived in the classroom before they did. Normally, the Vietnamese teachers arrive after the students, who stand up when the teacher enters the room. But, as a typical American, I usually get to class a little early so I can have my material ready. This class is used to me now, and don’t pay much attention when I enter, other than to politely say “Good afternoon, Teacher.”.
Vietnamese students have attended school in a culture long dominated by Confucian ideals. That means the teacher is held in very high regard. The teacher is an expert, and not to be questioned. While it is nice to be highly respected, it also results in very passive students. Students are used to being told what to learn, and interaction in the classroom is seldom done. Usually, a teacher does not ask questions, and most certainly a student would not ask the teacher a question as that might impugn the teacher’s knowledge and cause him/her to loose face.
Because I am a westerner, the school encourages me to use western teaching methodologies, which usually involve lot of interactivity. I cannot be interactive in the classroom if the students are passive, so I have to get them up and moving. Once we had exchanged “beginning of class pleasantries”, I had them count off by twos – then we walked down three flights of steps to the courtyard. All the “Ones” lined up on the left, and all the “Twos” lined up on the right. We did some role playing, with the “Ones” pretending to be British tourists looking for a good restaurant, and the “Twos” recommending a place and giving directions on how to get to the restaurant.
That got ‘em moving and talking. Now they are ready to do some active learning, so I sent them back upstairs in new groups of four. We had another exercise designed to do two things – to practice English among themselves, and to develop their own learning strategies. Each group was to come up with some ideas for practicing English out of class. After working for a few minutes, a few students stand up and tell the rest of the class of his/her group’s ideas Of course, I select the member of the group who will stand up and make the report, so that makes all of them work on the project. This is a noisy time in the classroom (and I sometimes wonder if we are upsetting the surrounding classrooms as there is no air conditioning and the windows are open), but they are practicing normal conversation and increasing their vocabulary.
With 60 students, it is important the students get as much practice as possible. The small groups are supposed to speak English, though I not so naïve as to believe they don’t lapse into Vietnamese when I’m not standing over them. In this picture, students are pretending they are calling me on the telephone after they have learned I am sick. The fun part is when I “talk” to one of them on the “phone”, and say something they do not expect.
Problem solving is an important part of learning. I seldom give students a direct answer to questions, and often have some sort of puzzle for them to solve.
And by the way – did I tell you I have the best students in Việt Nam?
Doug:
In the recent post about Desk Art, my teaching colleague Lam Anh made a wonderful assessment of my observation about teaching English in Whazzit Like to Teach English in Vietnam?
His observations and mine are quite different. Lam Anh feels that most younger Vietnamese teachers use high levels of interaction whilst teaching, and my perception is that most students are not accustomed to having teachers interact with them – especially if they use questions as a teaching tool.
Possibly this is somewhat like the three blind men who encounter an elephant. Each cannot see the whole elephant, so each describes the beast in terms of what he can feel. One will tell you an elephant and is hard and smooth – because he felt the tusk. Another will tell you elephants are rough and tall because he felt a leg. The third will tell you elephants are rough-skinned, very flexible, and sinewy – and he felt the trunk. All were correct, though their observations were incomplete.
I wonder what part of the elephant I didn’t see. During a research trip a few years ago to small cities such as Phan Rang and Quy Nhon, I saw no questions asked at all – just pure lecture. I also know that with my brand new first year students, they were extremely recalcitrant to talk to me for the first month or so. When questioned, they just giggled nervously and refused to answer. (Note: one of those students reads this blog, and she is the exception.)
Let me add this to my cordial debate with Lam Anh: is it possible in my past observations, that I saw some of the older teachers he mentions, and that they also were not teaching at a more progressive school such as Đại Học Sư Phạm (Huê College of Pedagogy)? Is it possible that Lam Anh is among the academic elite of Việt Nam who was taught by progressive teachers and mirrors their practices in his own teaching?
Another variable is that my first year students may have never had a foreign native speaking teacher before. (I assume that is very likely – native speaking teachers are either at universities or teach at private schools in Hồ Chí Minh City or Hà Nội
Still another variable (which Lam Anh tacitly acknowledges) is that he is teaching foreign language skills, which demand interaction. I wonder how many of the students’ other classes in history, chemistry, political science, or other topics are as interactive as language classes.
It’s a big elephant – and there is much more for me to learn.
HanoiMark:
I didn't do a lot of teaching while in Hanoi, but I did do some, and like Doug, I found it difficult to engage students in discussion. My attempts to get them interacting by inviting questions didn't usually work, and likewise i rarely got responses when I would ask the class a question. What worked best was to get them to discuss issues in groups and then report back to the class. But I always wondered how much of this was a language issue. It takes nerve for any student to speak up in class, but it's even more difficult when they have to do so in English.
I am also interested in the question of staff meetings. I witnessed a few and found them fascinating. How are they similar or different from Western style meetings?
Tu Cong Van:
The problem for Vietnamese when they speak foreign language are scare of making mistakes and shy.
Doug:
Thanx, Van. But your comment begs the question of *why* they are afraid to make mistakes. It is my contention that for *most* (not all) students, they have been in a non-interactive environment that is critical of making mistakes, as opposed to an interactive environment that is supportive of making mistakes as a means of learning the language better.
In other words, the students are afraid to interact becuase they have been in a teacher-centered system that discourages interaction.
Your thoughts?
Tu Cong Van:
Tu is my name :) hehe You can call me Van - not a big deal :)
Because they dont want to lose their face infront of their friends or colleagues. Thank god that I don't have that problem:)
Triet:
I think the students in Ho Chi Minh City are similar. Public school teachers lecture, lecture, lecture as well as most English teachers.
Therefore, students feel most at ease when I sit up front and talk. Any time I ask a question, everyone's eyes hit the floor. Choosing a student is like telling them to walk a plank--they'll do anything before finally opening up.
Why? Well, it's as you said--they are used to lecture, and (as Tu said) they don't want to lose face. Vietnamese familial culture reinforces this. My wife must bend over backwards to get the children she works with to talk about how AIDS has affected their lives, because they have been taught through negative feedback not to say anything that might be incorrect or shame the family.
It is not a language barrier issue, because those of us who speak the language get the same reactions.
I would say that over the last three months I have overcome some of their reticence. To do so, I have taken them as far outside their comfort zone as I can--changing who they sit next to, the direction seats are facing, and acting like a fool in front of them. This, plus constant positive reinforcement for any speaking and reminders that no answer is incorrect, has started to create a more dynamic learning environment.
Duong Lam Anh:
Yes, you mentioned the blind men feeling the elephant, then why don’t we put our minds together so that we can see the whole elephant as it is? (Though I know that is really a big one.)
I am with you that students here are less active; they speak less and seem to participate less in class. I agree that many students have been in a non-interactive environment, especially at lower levels; and I don’t deny the fact that many classes here are basically lectures as opposed to an interactive environment. But a closer observation finds the same thing in other meetings also, not only in the class; not only in a foreign language but in the mother tongue as well. (I’m curious to know what HanoiMark saw at staff meetings? And what difference?) Obviously, there is something more than that; something culture-based that people can’t see at first sight and on the surface and a good teacher should investigate the issue to find out what is the proper way to do.
Certainly it isn’t because students are discouraged to ask questions by the teacher, at least in language classes. It is true that in the past, the English textbooks at high schools here were, for the most part, grammar-based and translation-based and some teachers did *lecture*. But today, English textbooks have put on a new face. Teaching materials partly determine teaching methods. I can’t imagine teaching those textbooks the other way… I wonder about the language teachers that Triet mentioned in Ho Chi Minh City. They can *lecture* a content-based/ dialogue-oriented textbook? And doesn’t the change in chair type at Hue College of Education that Doug mentioned mean something? Doesn’t the fact that the English Department used to divide the class into halves to make them smaller say something? (Not this year, for some reasons.) Certainly students are not discouraged to speak in English classes by the teacher.
Tu hit a good point of losing face. Yes, the Westerners focus on GUILT, the Easterners emphasize FACE. The Americans say they *agree by disagreement*, the Vietnamese think *silence means consent*, the Westerners *speak out their thoughts*, the Vietnamese *curl their tongues seven times before saying * (Americans may argue they do say *think twice* but the Vietnamese say *seven*.) If only you could see the *push-and-pull* in a Vietnamese student wanting to say something in class. That can’t be seen but just be felt; that can’t be examined from outside but from inside. Yes, we *learn by mistakes* but the notion of face plays a big part here in Vietnam.
The Vietnamese concept of modesty should be acknowledged, too. Have you ever noticed the fact that when you, as a teacher, asked a question in class, no one answered, but if you took nerve to call a certain name, very likely, he/she gave you a perfect answer? Didn’t you ask yourself why? Have you ever seen that the silent ones in class might talk more when you put them in small groups? Did you feel surprised and ask yourself how come? Have you ever questioned yourself why an individual in the class knew the answer very well but kept mute and urged his/her friend to say it out loud for him/her?
Of course, I’m not saying this to defend passive learning. I just take this opportunity to pose questions for debate and supply some food for thought. A single factor means nothing but they altogether count.
And…Once in my graduate class in Boston, a male student from (?), who is among the more silent in the class wrote in his journal that American teachers tend to judge students’ participation through what he/she says in class but they don’t know that people don’t say in class doesn’t necessarily mean people are not working. They are working in their minds!
A-ha!
Yes, that folk was and his response was eye-opening, at least to me…
Brian:
Hope it pleases you both (MGB and self) to know how much this kinda exchange means - means - to those of us who just want to be bakc in Viet Nam, doin' something useflu and kind, not exploiting anyone at all.
Every post provokes and educates. I'm 57, got 4 degrees. Not a kid anymore, But, just can't get the place and the people - all of the real people -out of our hearts and minds.
You, Noodle, OMIH...make us long, not for the charms of the Caravelle, the Metropole, the Dalat Palace..wherever.
But, very very deeply,make us want to find a way of being there and doing our best to contribute.
What you guys are doing is encouraging me to think, just maybe, just maybe, since I / we don't want money, just maybe it's not too late.
Hope you might understand some of that. And the hold that the people we met in Vietnam took on our hearts.
Crazy stuff. Get well soon!!!
Tom Murray:
It's so interesting to hear this discussion of culture in the classroom. I can tell you as a Teacher Educator in the USA these things are so very important to me. I try to communicate to my students how importantit is to know deeply their students. This knowing their students is not a casual, superficial thing. It is a deep personal thing.
A USA classroom can have Vietnamese, Hispanic, Caucasian, African American and more, all in the same room. You can have rich kids, poor kids and those in the middle. If you know your students you can find a way to teach them. I truly believe you can take many approaches to teaching. You can take a technique approach and talk about, lecture, group work or project work. You can talk about content and making that "content" relative and interesting. The fact is, and I believe this in my soul, that all of this is irrelevant if you don't focus on students first in a very specific and detailed way. If you focus on students and they know how deeply you care they will work hard academically not to let you down.
My experience in the USA tells me this is for all cultures and all students. I wonder if others who have studied teaching in depth believe the same. My research, both quantitative and qualitative, backs me. I teach future teachers at the College of Charleston in Charleston, South Carolina, USA.
Triet:
First, the comment above, by Tom Murray, is great. Thanks, Tom. I have found your observation to be exactly correct, and try to truly understand every student in the classes I teach.
Now, some differences must be stated. First, I teach at a private English School, which differs in purpose and student makeup from a university setting, such as Hue. Secondly, I teach in Ho Chi Minh City, which is far different culturally than Hue. Most of my students are high school age or younger and looking for extra English help. They are often bankrolled by rich parents who can easily afford to spend over a million dong per month on English lessons (and my school is a cheap school in TpHCM). They come to class often sporting real Abercrombie & Fitch clothes (i.e. expensive and trendy even in America) and ipods. Students often do not want to be there, but are forced by parents, and so view it as play time. Therefore many classes at my school and others like it in TpHCM have severe obedience problems. Those students in my classes who are college students, are far better behaved and usually more humble too. They often save up to pay for the extra help in hopes it will land them a good job when they graduate college. A few already have jobs and want the English proficiency to help them get promotions.
Maybe your school has access to better textbooks than my school, or the others I have seen in TpHCM, but I can assure you, English Textbooks in TpHCM are by no means “content-based/ dialogue-oriented.” Far too often a textbook is structured around written grammar with dialogue an oft-forgotten appendage. I have seen teachers go a week without giving a student any meaningful verbal practice besides repeating vocabulary words.
That said, I think Vietnamese students’ passivity stems from 1) Confucian values 2) fear of losing face 3) meekness 4) learned behaviour, and 5) laziness.
1) I think this practice is more prevalent in Vietnam because of the Confucian social structure that undergirds modern Vietnamese society. Teachers are revered and nearly infalliable. My English is not perfect, and I can remember a couple times off the top of my head where I taught something totally incorrect for a whole class, never corrected, until class ended and I realized my mistake. In America, most of my teachers were not infalliable—only people farther along the path than I was. They had greater knowledge, and served as “guides” or “facilitators” as I tried to discover and apply the subject. Every instruction was greeted with a “why?”
2) Tu is correct. Viet people do not want to lose face. And it pervades everything. I had a disruptive student in class throw a shoe at another student. It was a new class for me. It was a children’s class. I immediately stopped class, took the offender downstairs, and talked with the management. I demanded that his parents be called and his behavior marked—I would not have that happen in my class ever again. The response from management? “We cannot call his parents. They might lose face and withdraw him from school and we will lose money.” I could elaborate more fully my frustrations with this scene, but they are tangental to the topic.
3) The “concept of modesty” of Lam Anh is also meekness or just plain shyness. Two days ago, I asked for a volunteer to help perform a dialogue with me. Every students’ eyes immediately looked at the floor except for Mary, a woman in her late 40s (that in itself is an anomaly). She kept looking at me, looking away, looking at me and smiling, looking away. Eventually, as I asked a third time for a volunteer, she raised her hand and smiled. She did a great job. This situation is repeated the world over in classes on every subject, not just English in Vietnam.
4) Most teachers in Vietnam stand in front of a board, lecture, and write. Students learn this from day 1. Because of that, they become used to it—it feels normal. Hence, if and when they have a chance to fall into their comfort zone, they will take it. Ultimately, writing without thinking the things a teacher says or writes, is easier than having to immediately incorporate them into a verbal repetoire.
5) Which is very close to just being LAZY. For every student out there that works hard, there is one that doesn’t care. One who has great talents but would rather sneakily listen to music, or draw on his/her table, or read comics, or just stare at the ceiling. And there are those without great talents, who see something hard and just “turn off.” I have two students who sit in the back of Mary’s class who are very smart—one got the highest score on last level’s placement exam—but very lazy. When it comes to doing dialogues, working in pairs, even playing games, they would rather sit and talk in Vietnamese about girls, music, sports. Again, such behavior is typical of students outside Vietnam as well as in.
Tom Murray:
Your comments on my post are very interesting to me. You take the craft very seriuosly and reflect on it. That makes for excellent teaching. I first learned my teaching skills in the USA with what are called "at-risk students". This term is wide-ranging but includes criminals, gang members, the drug and/or alcohol addicted, teenage parents and serious behavior problems. This population is seldom respected by the education system in the USA. In this case the lack of respect for the students could be found in the fact that few or no books were provided for the students. Consequently, I had to teach my high school electives differently than those who used a book. I found this required me to focus on the students and their challenges so much as I taught history and other subjects that when I did get books it was not comfortable for me or the stdents to heavily depend on them. We used music analysis, photo analysis, popular culture items, classroom guests from the community, newspaper or magazines and when possible the Internet to explore academic content.
Each day was it's own challenge and was designed independent from a book for the students. Being forced to design my lessons without books, I found myself more concerned with the apathy, laziness, shyness, and boredom that came to be normal for most students. Once the students realized that things would be different in my room and nothing was really predicatable their behavior changed in school.
I've done extensive research in this area. This student-centered focus can change students, teachers and achools. Apathy, laziness, shyness and boredom are pervasive in USA schools. Changing the approach from content (books) to students can change everyone in the equation.
Layered:
Wow! Quite the discussion you started here, Doug. I can't believe I am going to get into this as a non-educator, but here goes anyway as an experienced parent.
I certainly agree with Tom above in his post above about "Apathy, laziness, shyness and boredom are pervasive in USA schools." To that I would add a variation on the "face" that Mr. Tu brought up in his comment to the "Different Perspectives" post. My younger daughter attended an inner-city very diverse public high school in San Francisco. She would do well on examinations, but was downgraded for not turning in her homework. I spoke with the school principal who told me that she and many other bright students would do their homework but would not turn it in due to peer pressure -- not wanting to "lose the face" of their peers. I keep thinking that fear of losing face is not just an Asian characteristic.—Mel
Tom Murray:
Mel,
It is a real phenomenon that students, especially in inner-city schools are cautious of looking too smart. The most common instance is that African American boys are commonly know to be cautious of doing too well in school because it is perceived as "acting white".
Inner-city schools are my specialty. Even though I teach at the College of Charleston I am also assigned to a local inner-city 100% black high school. You may be shocked, but boys graduate at a dismal 22%. The girls graduate at just over 40%. It's a sad commentary on schools in the USA. My research also shows that schools in Ho Chi Minh City are starting to show the same characteristics as inner-city USA schools. Countryside schools in Vietnam have virtually no behavior problems that a teacher can't handle. HCM City schools have so many disruptive students that they are placing them in isolated classrooms and at times isolated schools just like USA schools. It is important to mention that in the USA the best teachers typically avoid these schools and the new teachers and not as qualified teachers end up there.
Triet:
Incredibly interesting connection between innercity schools in both countries, Tom. I've been wondering that myself, since I see so many characteristics of inner city America in Ho Chi Minh City--would it extend to the classroom as well. You've answered my question. Thanks.
Triet:
Actually, on second thought, I'd love to see hard data for both America and Vietnam to support Tom's observation. It's probably (relatively) easy to obtain in America, but does that data exist (or can be obtained) in Vietnam??
Such times are times I wish I had well placed friends in the gov...they're probably the only ones with the information if it exists.
Tom Murray:
I presented research in Ho Chi Minh City last summer. I talked to some Ho Chi Monh City secondary teachers, researchers and countryside teachers. I do not have Vietnamese Education research just anecdotal data from Vietnamese teachers. I do have USA data. The students studied had improvement in GPA that was so significant it was examined by a group of experts to insure authenticity. GPAs for their entire high school experience was 1.7. During the class the GPAs went to 3.5 and stayed there for the next semester as well, even though the teacher was no longer involved with the class.
There was improvement in attendance and state-wide high risk tests for graduation. Students were interviewed for an hour on three different occasions. Their comments were sad about the education system they experienced until they found enjoyment in this class.
I have the data in my office. I'll try to cut and paste it tomorrow. I'm not sure that will work in this posting area.
HanoiMark:
Despite my suspicion of using all too clean oppositions in cross-cultural comparisons, I must admit they seem to have some validity in my experience when comparing education systems and classroom dynamics in N. America vs. Vietnam. Still many of the comments above show that the oppositions aren’t always so clean.
I don’t have quite as much teaching experience as many of you who have written in so far, but I have some background. As a librarian I have taught a lot of information literacy classes at my university in Toronto, Canada, and recently I have also conducted similar undergraduate workshops in Hanoi. I also had a hand in teaching some professional development classes for young librarians from across Vietnam.
In general I did find it harder to engage the students and get them to interact with me. I was rarely asked questions from the class even when I invited them, and usually the questions I would ask the class would go over like lead balloons. However, I discovered this was mostly just a problem when it was me vs. the class. If I broke the class down into groups and provided a structured exercise, the students were quite happy to discuss and interact. Maybe the classroom lecture structure with the class in chairs and the teacher at the front has more baggage in VN than in the West. Maybe it’s too structured.
I agree with Lam Anh that changes are happening in the VN educational system and that younger generations of teachers and students are starting to have different expectations. I don’t think the changes are a result of the imposition of Western values, so much as internal strains within the educational model. I had some really fascinating conversations with a really bright young guy at my gym in Hanoi and he often complained about the traditional (Confucian?) approach to teaching and learning in Vietnamese universities. He was clearly itching for a more open and dynamic approach.
Although these changes may be afoot, it will be a slow process. One of my projects at the university in HN was to try to initiate information literacy classes. Some instructors were supportive, but I don’t think they really fully understood the role that information could have in an education. It is difficult to encourage library and information use unless the curriculum demands that students think and write independently on topics beyond what they find in their textbooks or lecture notes. The idea of choosing a topic and finding information and resources beyond what the instructor may be familiar with, is deeply anti-Confucian. (If you think about it, writing an essay is about trying to convince your teacher of your point of view. A more Confucian approach is to show your teacher that you have understood and absorbed his/her knowledge.)
As for the issue of staff meetings…I only saw/participated in several in VN so it’s hard to generalize. Generally though they were not particularly interactive. They did not seem to be about discussion of ideas (although many in the West only have a façade of discussion). Also I never really saw an agenda. However, I did go to the meeting of an academic department which was very different. The young dean of the dept. was Western educated and her approach was much more open. There was even a big free-for-all discussion at one point. I think this is an example of a new generation taking hold in the education system.
If you are interested in reading more about my experience at an academic library in VN, see my blog entry "Zero to Sixty in the Library"
http://hanoimark.blogspot.com/2005/09/zero-to-sixty-at-library.html
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